Legislature(2003 - 2004)
05/05/2004 05:57 PM House CRA
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS
STANDING COMMITTEE
May 5, 2004
5:57 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Carl Morgan, Chair
Representative Kelly Wolf, Vice Chair
Representative Pete Kott
Representative Sharon Cissna
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Tom Anderson
Representative Ralph Samuels
Representative Albert Kookesh
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 132(RES)
"An Act removing the Old Minto townsite from the Minto Flats
State Game Refuge; and authorizing the Department of Natural
Resources to convey certain land at the historic Old Minto site
to the Native Village of Minto."
- MOVED CSSB 132(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 382(CRA) am
"An Act relating to replat approval; relating to the platting of
right-of-way acquired through eminent domain proceedings; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED CSSB 382(CRA) AM OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SB 132
SHORT TITLE: MINTO FLATS GAME REFUGE & TOWNSITE
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) LINCOLN
03/10/03 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/10/03 (S) CRA, RES
04/07/04 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP 203
04/07/04 (S) -- Meeting Canceled --
04/14/04 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP 203
04/14/04 (S) Moved CSSB 132(CRA) Out of Committee
04/14/04 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
04/15/04 (S) CRA RPT CS 4DP NEW TITLE
04/15/04 (S) DP: STEDMAN, LINCOLN, WAGONER, ELTON
04/19/04 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/19/04 (S) Heard & Held
04/19/04 (S) MINUTE(RES)
04/26/04 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/26/04 (S) Moved CSSB 132(RES) Out of Committee
04/26/04 (S) MINUTE(RES)
04/27/04 (S) RES RPT CS FORTHCOMING 5DP 1NR
04/27/04 (S) NR: OGAN; DP: LINCOLN, ELTON,
04/27/04 (S) WAGONER, SEEKINS, DYSON
04/28/04 (S) RES CS RECEIVED NEW TITLE
05/03/04 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
05/03/04 (S) VERSION: CSSB 132(RES)
05/04/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
05/04/04 (H) CRA, RES
05/05/04 (H) CRA AT 9:00 AM CAPITOL 124
BILL: SB 382
SHORT TITLE: EMINENT DOMAIN/REPLAT OF BOUNDARY CHANGES
SPONSOR(S): TRANSPORTATION
03/31/04 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/31/04 (S) TRA, CRA
04/01/04 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
04/01/04 (H) -- Meeting Postponed to Fri, 4/2/04 --
04/02/04 (S) TRA RPT CS 3DP 2NR SAME TITLE
04/02/04 (S) DP: WAGONER, COWDERY, THERRIAULT;
04/02/04 (S) NR: LINCOLN, OLSON
04/14/04 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP 203
04/14/04 (S) Moved CSSB 382(CRA) Out of Committee
04/14/04 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
04/15/04 (S) CRA RPT CS 2DP 2NR SAME TITLE
04/15/04 (S) DP: STEDMAN, WAGONER;
04/15/04 (S) NR: LINCOLN, ELTON
04/21/04 (S) BEFORE THE SENATE IN THIRD READING
04/22/04 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
04/22/04 (S) VERSION: CSSB 382(CRA) AM
04/30/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/30/04 (H) CRA, TRA
05/01/04 (H) CRA AT 2:00 PM CAPITOL 124
05/01/04 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
05/03/04 (H) CRA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
05/03/04 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
05/05/04 (H) CRA AT 9:00 AM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
JOHN MACKINNON, Deputy Commissioner of Highways & Public
Facilities
Office of the Commissioner
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed CSSB 382(CRA) am.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 04-18, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR CARL MORGAN called the House Community and Regional
Affairs Standing Committee meeting to order at 5:57 p.m.
Representatives Morgan, Wolf, Kott, and Cissna were present at
the call to order.
SB 132-MINTO FLATS GAME REFUGE & TOWNSITE
CHAIR MORGAN announced that the first order of business would be
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 132(RES), "An Act removing the Old Minto
townsite from the Minto Flats State Game Refuge; and authorizing
the Department of Natural Resources to convey certain land at
the historic Old Minto site to the Native Village of Minto."
Number 0054
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT moved to report [CSSB 132(RES)] out of
committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying
fiscal notes. There being no objection, [CSSB 132(RES)] was
reported from the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing
Committee.
SB 382-EMINENT DOMAIN/REPLAT OF BOUNDARY CHANGES
CHAIR MORGAN announced that the final order of business would be
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 382(CRA) am, "An Act relating to replat
approval; relating to the platting of right-of-way acquired
through eminent domain proceedings; and providing for an
effective date."
The committee recessed from 5:55 p.m. to 5:58 p.m. while waiting
for representatives from the Department of Transportation &
Public Facilities.
[Not on tape, but taken from the Gavel to Gavel recording on the
Internet, was the following:
Number 0234
JOHN MACKINNON, Deputy Commissioner of Highways & Public
Facilities, Office of the Commissioner, Department of
Transportation & Public Facilities (DOT&PF), explained that many
highway projects require widening the existing right-of-way,
which requires the state to acquire property from adjacent
property owners. The aforementioned have typically been done
through a short plat process rather than a long plat process,
which is the current interpretation. He informed the committee
that 90 percent of the property acquisitions are voluntary, but
about 10 percent result in condemnation. In order to go through
the long plat process, the property owner's signature is
required. However, that can't be done in a condemnation because
the property owner won't give his or her signature. The
aforementioned has resulted in some difficult situations in a
couple of projects in which the department can't acquire the
necessary right-of-way. Therefore, this legislation corrects
the aforementioned situation with regard to municipalities
[requiring a long plat process that requires the signature of
the property owner] and does so in statute.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA inquired as to what the municipalities are
requiring.
MR. MACKINNON explained that the municipality agrees that the
short plat process is efficient, but the statute is interpreted
to specify that the department must go through the long plat
process. He mentioned that this interpretation [to follow the
long plat process] is holding up a fairly significant process in
Anchorage and Kenai.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked if CSSB 382(CRA) am will solve the
problem with the C Street extension in Anchorage.
MR. MACKINNON answered that CSSB 382(CRA) am would resolve the
problem with the C Street project in Anchorage as well as the
Kenai River bridge in Soldotna. However, he noted that HB 327,
presently in the House Rules Standing Committee, addresses
another process that attorneys have successfully used to slow
the process.]
[The recording on the tape begins with the testimony below. At
this point the counter numbers were reset.]
MR. MACKINNON related that this takes care of C Street in
Anchorage. The list of projects that this could affect is
fairly long. He explained that once attorneys have the template
for slowing or stopping a project, it's very easy to take it and
plug in other projects.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT turned attention to the retroactivity
clause.
MR. MACKINNON reiterated his belief that the retroactivity
clause applies to State of Alaska v. Hartman, which deals with C
Street. He noted that State of Alaska v. Hinkel deals with the
Kenai River bridge.
Number 0114
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF inquired as to how this legislation would
help the state with regard to the river terrace Hinkel project.
MR. MACKINNON related his belief that the state isn't acquiring
right-of-way with the Hinkel project, but rather it's a right of
entry issue. However, he said he understood that this
legislation corrects that issue as well.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF related his understanding that the Hinkel
project is a three-year lease that is currently in condemnation.
However, he related his further understanding that there is lien
on the property from another state agency, the Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC). He explained, "They are being
'liened' on the property by a state agency using federal dollars
to do the project." Representative Wolf said that he had
understood that this legislation didn't address the Hinkel
project, but now he is concerned with it.
Number 0280
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA indicated that there is probably a "rich
history" with the two cases cited in the legislation, and
therefore she expressed the desire to hear it.
MR. MACKINNON said that he didn't have an answer with regard to
the "rich history" of these projects. However, he pointed out
that right-of-way acquisition for projects is a bottleneck. The
state has to follow fairly concise federal rules on right-of-way
acquisition and now there is a new interpretation of state
statute.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA surmised that if this legislation doesn't
pass, then the department would have to wait until the cases
move through the court process.
MR. MACKINNON explained his understanding of condemnation as
follows. Once one files for condemnation, there is the right of
entry to use the property while the courts settle the value.
Condemnation occurs because either the property owner doesn't
want to sell the property or doesn't agree with the appraisals
of the property.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA further surmised that the ultimate result
[of CSSB 382(CRA) am] would be to increase the price.
Number 0417
MR. MACKINNON informed the committee that the department must
follow the Uniform Relocation Act that was the result of a
federal process, and therefore there are limits with regard to
how much the state can pay for property. When the property
owner and the state disagree on the value of the property, the
courts determine the value. Mr. Mackinnon said that the Right-
of-Way division stretches things as far as possible in order to
obtain agreement because condemnation is a time consuming and
costly process.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF surmised then that this legislation attempts
to obtain authorization to proceed with a project and deal with
condemnation later.
MR. MACKINNON agreed. He explained that typically the
department likes to settle before the project begins, but when
that isn't possible the condemnation process begins. The
condemnation process allows the project to proceed and settle
later with the value determined by settlement or by the courts.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF said that he is very nervous. He informed
the committee that the river terrace project has a rich history
in which there has been seven years of abusive power by the
government. The project is going to court, where he predicted a
host of environmental issues will be brought up. Representative
Wolf noted that he spent since June of last year trying to
resolve this situation and came very close to resolution.
However, the administration refused to met with the property
owners.
MR. MACKINNON recalled that on the [river terrace project] there
was an old dry cleaning plant.
Number 0620
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA posed a situation in which an
environmental issue comes to light after the condemnation
process has resulted in the project proceeding. She inquired as
to what would happen in that case.
MR. MACKINNON replied that it would depend upon the source of
the contamination; it would be the original perpetrator's
responsibility. He mentioned that such a situation exists in
Whittier. During the 1964 earthquake there were some U.S. Army
fuel tanks that were ruptured and contaminated the soil. The
contaminated soil still exists and while the government owns the
property it's the responsibility of the U.S. Army. As soon as
the property transfers to private hands, the U.S. Army's
responsibility is absolved. Mr. Mackinnon indicated that the
contamination [at the river terrace project] was the result of
practices of the time. He related his understanding that the
contamination is contained, although a disturbance could cause
it to migrate and no one wants the contamination to migrate into
the Kenai River.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF commented that this isn't the place to go
into the history of this. Representative Wolf further commented
that he has tried to warn DOT&PF and keep the department out of
this.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA questioned how [the river terrace project]
could go forward.
MR. MACKINNON clarified that the contamination of the soil is a
separate issue, and the contamination is in a different
location. He said he understood this legislation to allow use
of a portion of the property for the construction of the new
bridge.
Number 0826
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF explained that a portion of the property is
being used as temporary access to construct a temporary bridge
in order to construct the new bridge. Therefore, a temporary
bed is being laid down over the contaminated soil. He noted
that working over the contaminated soil could, in the Department
of Environmental Conservation's worst case scenario, result in a
difficult situation [in which the contamination migrates].
CHAIR MORGAN questioned whether the discussion is going beyond
the scope of the legislation.
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA surmised then that passage of this
legislation wouldn't compromise the community or the river.
Therefore, the state would need its rights-of-way, but not at
the sake of the community.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF said that [this legislation] wouldn't
compromise the river or the community. However, it could
compromise the property owner(s).
CHAIR MORGAN, upon determining no one else wished to testify,
closed public testimony.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF stated that he would object to reporting
CSSB 382(CRA) am from committee.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT indicated that he was speaking on behalf of
the mayor of Anchorage when he noted that the C Street extension
is an important project to Anchorage. Therefore, he said that
the mayor of Anchorage would appreciate Representative Cissna
making the motion to report the legislation from committee.
Number 1064
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA moved to report CSSB 382(CAR)am out of
committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying
zero fiscal note.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF objected.
A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Cissna, Kott, and
Morgan voted in favor of reporting CSSB 382(CRA) am.
Representatives Wolf voted against it. Therefore, CSSB 382(CRA)
am was reported out of the House Community and Regional Affairs
Standing Committee by a vote of 3-1.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF explained that his objection is related to
the concerns of the private property owner in Soldotna, possible
litigation, and the cost to the state for that.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT mentioned that he wasn't familiar with the
[river terrace project] and thus would like to work with
Representative Wolf on the matter.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee meeting was
adjourned at 6:18 p.m.
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